Thanks for an interesting debate this morning.
Some thoughts to expand on what we discussed:
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Some thoughts to expand on what we discussed:
1/
The main one is that 'democracy' is always a stick to beat others with
No system can even be a pure expression of a democratic ideal, for the simple reason that there are many such ideals
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No system can even be a pure expression of a democratic ideal, for the simple reason that there are many such ideals
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To take a pertinent example, direct democracy is not the same as representative democracy, but both have their advocates (and rightly so)
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At such, it's unhelpful to argue that democratic failings equal a non-democratic system
The better test is whether the failings are tolerable, when seen in the round
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The better test is whether the failings are tolerable, when seen in the round
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In the case of the EU, this issue is further complicated by the persistent insistence on using the state as a yardstick
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While you might accept that the EU isn't a state, then seems to be much more resistance to the idea that one can't really use national comparators
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If we look at much criticism of the EU, it's because it doesn't do things like a state (directly elect its leaders, for example)
Or, because it does (control policy decisions, for example)
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Or, because it does (control policy decisions, for example)
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This is to fall into a trap of thinking there's a state-EU slider, and you move power between the two: more state = less EU, as v.v.
That's possible, theoretically, but it bears almost no relation to the situation on the ground
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That's possible, theoretically, but it bears almost no relation to the situation on the ground
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Academic debate moved a lot ago from EU-as-state-replacement, because it doesn't work.
There's much more work on EU-as-state-enhancement, tbh
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There's much more work on EU-as-state-enhancement, tbh
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But the idea I'd advance, borrowing shamelessly from @BrigidLaffan, is that the EU changes states, rather than replacing or enhancing them
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A nation-state is a really strong and durable political object, because it has a reinforcing triangle of territory-function-identity
It provides a definite set of outputs and belongings across a fixed space
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It provides a definite set of outputs and belongings across a fixed space
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But within the EU, nation-states become member states. Each part of the triangle is challenged and changed.
Boundaries are smudged
Functions are shared
Identities are multiplied
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Boundaries are smudged
Functions are shared
Identities are multiplied
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To expect that national democratic models can function in this new space is unhelpful, because it seeks to use inappropriate assumptions to solve poorly-conceptualised issues
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Of course, you now ask what might be the more appropriate model to use
To which I don't have a direct answer
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To which I don't have a direct answer
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That new model isn't there right now, but the tools of democracy are
The way to a better-functioning model of democracy (one that works, when seen in the round) is through constructive participation, debate and negotiation
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The way to a better-functioning model of democracy (one that works, when seen in the round) is through constructive participation, debate and negotiation
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Perhaps a final thought, to try to tie this together, is that you consider whether the solution you propose to the problem produces a system that works better for your understanding of democracy
And whether your preferred model of democracy works for the world we live in
/end
And whether your preferred model of democracy works for the world we live in
/end
