Thread by @gusseting

Australia's #robodebt is based on an algorithm, so, I'm going to listen to and livetweet the @flashforwardpod podcast in relation to how @HumanServicesAU, particularly @Centrelink is using technology in a harmful way.

https://twitter.com/roseveleth/status/1166373613252960257

Before we get started, a little explainer of #robodebt: a "speculative invoice generated by an algorithm"
c/o @manjusrii

https://twitter.com/manjusrii/status/1169800859745521664

+ longer read of the issue c/o @not_my_debt:
notmydebt.com.au/the-issue

"The government is using a computer algorithm to identify overpayments, or ‘debt’, by matching fortnightly Centrelink reporting periods to annual income from the Australian Taxation Office and looking for discrepancies. "

Podcast title "Can You Sue An Algorithm?". 1000's of Australians would be rather keen.
Podcast = future, but #robodebt began in 2016.
Interviewed: @ruchowdh, @kevindeliban, @WNicholsonPrice and @ShobitaP all talking about the future of holding algorithms accountable.

Here's what's happening now with #robodebt: Terry Carney, who reviewed decisions made by the govt for 39 years, calls #robodebts extortion: abc.net.au/news/2019-06-2…
"The [Human Services] Department's conduct is abysmal"

@cassandragoldie CEO of @acoss calls #robodebt an "Abuse of Power": theguardian.com/commentisfree/…
"Imagine if banks were issuing hundreds of thousands of false debts against their customers and expecting customers to prove them wrong or pay up."

"This is how the govt is treating people who’ve received income support payments with its notorious #robodebt scheme. 3 years since its inception, robodebt continues to inflict people with inaccurate debts, forcing them to prove their innocence or pay back $ they may not owe."

Podcast: lets look at a future 2060 where in 2023, a woman died in a hospital due to a decision made by an algorithm.
With #robodebt now, over 2000 deaths: abc.net.au/triplej/progra…
Govt minister: "There's no link, people die". Nice try.

"@SenatorSiewert told @SatPaper that “there are at least five families that believe a debt notice contributed to their loved one taking their own life”.
thesaturdaypaper.com.au/2019/03/02/rob…
RHYS Cauzzo, 28, took his own life after being hounded by debt collectors: news.com.au/finance/money/…

Podcast: 2 teenagers debating - Santos + Ava.
Santos has to defend the coders of the algorithm: "The system placed her in a low priority group because they calculated, accurately..." Summary: $ + resources.
With #robodebt, it's built to be inaccurate. More on that later...

Ava: "Currently the creators of the algorithm are putting money before a woman’s life. They… if you create something like that you should stand behind your work. And if it’s misused then you should be able to jump in and take action."
Ava, you just summarised #robodebt.

The #robodebt algorithm is still as dumb, basic and hamfisted as when it started.
Robert Skinner explains the maths:
"First, draw a picture of a rabbit with half its brain missing. Now imagine that you are being audited by the rabbit."
themonthly.com.au/issue/2019/aug…

Ava: "If (the creators of the algorithm) they don’t get charged then that could be a sign to other companies that they could do the exact same thing. Letting people die while having risky programs and still gain money off of it."
Once again, spot on, Ava. Here's the twist:

The government has gotten away with #robodebt so far, so they're planning on putting that algorithm onto more vulnerable people:
theguardian.com/australia-news…
Why? Because "Coalition needs to include over 65s and other disadvantaged welfare recipients to hit $600m budget plan"

https://twitter.com/viennachocolate/status/1170154722633797633?s=20

Ava on the changes that should be made to the algorithm: "If you just give something without any justification then a number of possibilities could happen.".

With #robodebt, you get a letter, indicating you have a debt, with no justification as to how.

There's debate on the podcast about the hospital. Editing for brevity:
- Isn't it our fault, for choosing this hospital?
- The hospital failed in their duty because of this algorithm.
Replace hospital with australian government, and you have #robodebt.

@ruchowdh + @roseveleth talk algorithms: "So, an algorithm is basically math translated into code. It’s essentially some sort of a statistical, probabilistic, formula that figures out the likelihood of something to happen."
"An algorithm is basically just a set of rules".

@ruchowdh "So, models are when you take an algorithm; you put data into it; and you get some sort of a prediction."
But what happens when something goes wrong?

This is the sinister bit about #robodebt - as covered off in the @not_my_debt "the issue" on their website, the algorithm is *programmed* to be faulty, and their model *proved* how faulty it was, yet the model was unleashed regardless.

In the podcast, there's a massive chunk with @roseveleth talking with @kevindeliban an attorney who works at an organization called Legal Aid of Arkansas. They go in depth about part of a medicaid program that helps people live independently, which suddenly started getting cut.

In brief, @kevindeliban's organisation sues to invalidate the algorithm that determined the health cuts until they won.
The downside?
"The algorithm has been gone, and the state has since switched to a new system. They won’t use the word algorithm to describe the new system. "

"It’s like it’s taboo now. Nobody says the A word. What they have now instead is what they call “tiering logic.” So, you know, you play the game of euphemism. “We don’t have algorithms, we only after tiering logic.” Which somehow makes it better. "

Given what @kevindeliban went through, its important that we ask the question to those in govt like @billshortenmp who wants to #scraprobodebt - what are you going to replace it with, Bill?

https://twitter.com/billshortenmp/status/1155676411325140992?s=20

@kevindeliban @billshortenmp There's a few great quotes from @kevindeliban that apply to #robodebt:
Kevin: The algorithm issue was just an easy and convenient way to cut spending that comes in this veneer of being objective, and rational, and not subject to any sort of human biases.

@kevindeliban @billshortenmp @kevindeliban: "So, in law, there’s a basic principle of due process, right? The idea is that the government can’t take anything that’s life, liberty, or property, without giving you a fair chance to contest the taking of it, right? "

That means they’ve got to tell you why they’re taking it. They’ve got to give you an opportunity to prove them wrong. What we argued is that if the state was using this kind of black box process to take away people’s benefits, they were depriving them of fundamental due process.

Ok, so the @flashforwardpod had @kevindeliban doing legal against the govt. For #robodebt, we have @RowanMcRae - Executive Director Civil Justice, Access and Equity at @VicLegalAid.
We'd like to congratulate Rowan on her success in court yesterday:

https://twitter.com/gerardthomas_1/status/1169877441793282050?s=20

@RowanMcRae on #robodebt:
"We cannot accept a system that is so clearly flawed and causing overwhelming hardship to the most disadvantaged people in our community," she said.

@RowanMcRae @RowanMcRae on #robodebt
"It is important that a court looks at the lawfulness of the process Centrelink relies on to decide that people owe them money."
Hells yes, because this process is *seriously flawed*.
Disclaimer: haven't had a #robodebt, but my take on the process is:

@RowanMcRae In order to get a #robodebt, you need to have worked, and earnt money somewhere, which is then reported by you to @centrelink, but also shows up on your records with the @ato_gov_au. The algorithm/model is built to calculate the highest debt possible that you owe.

@RowanMcRae @Centrelink @ato_gov_au You *should* get a letter about your debt. We've seen that people don't, and the first that they know about their debt is having money taken out of their tax returns. #robodebt, the gift that keeps on taking.
An example:

@RowanMcRae @Centrelink @ato_gov_au

https://twitter.com/zako488/status/1159661208569405443?s=20

@RowanMcRae @Centrelink @ato_gov_au Getting back to that letter, you get a confirm and update details letter aka the CUPI:

@RowanMcRae @Centrelink @ato_gov_au Pretending you go along with that, and do what the letter says, this is the next letter, which is your official #robodebt:

@RowanMcRae @Centrelink @ato_gov_au Linda, who got this letter, is being asked to pay over $8000 in a month. If she's on centrelink payments of around $350 a fortnight the onus is then on her to contact centrelink and negotiate her #robodebt. She has to call.
Centrelink *love* making you call them.

Why the phonecalls? Because they're part of wearing you down, and agreeing to anything to get rid of your #robodebt:

https://twitter.com/not_my_debt/status/1164706681206345728

Centrelink also send threatening letters about #robodebts not paid:

https://twitter.com/not_my_debt/status/1104249691003211776

When you do call, you call centrelink's compliance team. This is where things get brutal. Because the compliance team work to targets, their job is to ensure that as much money is made as possible:
smh.com.au/politics/feder…

"the instructions were to do everything possible to accelerate the process in debt raising and satisfy the targets that were being set."
(I may have things out of order here re: letters and phonecalls, but the basic gist is, you're in a hamster wheel with compliance + phonecalls)

That's the process - you're basically heavied into paying a debt you can't afford, that you can't prove you don't owe.
Whilst centrelink want you to know that they care:
twitter.com/search?f=top&q…
Here's how much they care:

They care so much that they determined that a homeless woman with a #robodebt was "not in financial hardship" and took her $3500 tax return:
theguardian.com/australia-news…

We know there's around 20,000 of those confirm and update letters being pumped out per week.
We know that centrelink keeps very quiet about another part of the process if you have a #robodebt, where people can get their money back.
Authorised Review.

@VicLegalAid have led the way with providing a template to get an Authorised Review Officer to review your debt and put it on hold:
legalaid.vic.gov.au/find-legal-ans…

@VicLegalAid What happens when #robodebts go through an Authorised Review officer?
Major, major, change:

https://twitter.com/not_my_debt/status/1166098010922577920?s=20

@VicLegalAid So, if Linda with that $8400 #robodebt went through the review process, the debt is more likely to be around $2000, and there's a 20% chance she owes nothing at all.
(My hideous maths might be out a bit, but basically speaking, pay a #robodebt without a review = being scammed).

@VicLegalAid It's getting late (and long!) so some wrapping up:
As a layperson, what I completely fail to understand is how #robodebt has been going on for so long. If you go into a store, and steal $10,000 of goods, the cops are onto you.
However, if you're the government:

@VicLegalAid It's somehow perfectly fine for our government to be stealing around $851 million* from our most vulnerable people as #robodebt
(75% of the average debt = $1702 x 500,000).

@VicLegalAid Kathryn Campbell, the woman most responsible for #robodebt, was awarded an order of australia medal:

https://twitter.com/beneltham/status/1088929111605534720?s=20

@VicLegalAid However, there are a bunch of folk who are doing amazing things re: education + removal of #robodebt: you've met @VicLegalAid (good luck with court!). There's also:
@Asher_Wolf (great legal thread:

https://twitter.com/Asher_Wolf/status/1074826493941837824?s=20

)
@DarrenODonovan (

https://twitter.com/DarrenODonovan/status/1156299505479798784?s=20

)

@VicLegalAid @Asher_Wolf @DarrenODonovan folk doing amazing #robodebt tasks cont...
@jpwarren:

https://twitter.com/jpwarren/status/1136863371267936257?s=20

@QcSilbert :

https://twitter.com/QcSilbert/status/1169371279427661829?s=20

@not_my_debt:

https://twitter.com/not_my_debt/status/1145164368847392768

@VicLegalAid @Asher_Wolf @DarrenODonovan @jpwarren @QcSilbert @not_my_debt There are plenty of others - feel free to comment about those :).

I do wonder: What have we learnt from #robodebt ?
How do we ensure that this never happens again?
Thanks to @roseveleth for starting the conversation around algorithms.