Cohen: So, we were worried about Woori Bank…
Cohen made a small chuckle after making that remark.
Correction: Misheard the name of the second bank. The second one is Industrial Bank of Korea (IBK)
Cohen made another trip to Turkey in Dec. 2013.
This time, he didn't meet with anyone at Halkbank because his travel was complicated by "a major law enforcement action" in Turkey at the time.
This time, he didn't meet with anyone at Halkbank because his travel was complicated by "a major law enforcement action" in Turkey at the time.
Cohen later met with the new general manager of Halkbank, whose name Cohen said he won't try to pronounce.
"We talked about Mr. Zarrab at that meeting," he said.
"We talked about Mr. Zarrab at that meeting," he said.
Prosecutor asks what Cohen asked about Zarrab.
Cohen says he doesn’t recall precisely, but he wanted to know what Halkbank’s involvement with Zarrab was or had been at that point.
Cohen says he doesn’t recall precisely, but he wanted to know what Halkbank’s involvement with Zarrab was or had been at that point.
Cohen says he was interested in "learning as much as I could about Mr. Zarrab."
Q: Did you ever receive satisfactory answers to those concerns?
A: (long pause) Not really, I think is the answer to that question.
A: (long pause) Not really, I think is the answer to that question.
Explaining his hesitation, Cohen says that the answers they gave were reassuring. They said that they were aware of Treasury’s concerns and aware of the info underlying it. But he said that he wasn't satisfied because he kept getting new information that it wasn't under control.
Prosecutor: No further questions.
Court recess before cross-examination.
Court recess before cross-examination.
No court-recess. They're speeding ahead.
Victor Rocco is grilling Cohen now.
Rocco (Atilla's attorney): Did you ever meet one on one with Mr. Atilla?
Cohen: I don't think so.
Cohen: I don't think so.
Rocco: You met with him with other people from Treasury.
And Atilla was accompanied by other Halkbank personnel.
Cohen says that's correct.
And Atilla was accompanied by other Halkbank personnel.
Cohen says that's correct.
Cohen said that a member of the State Department "sometimes" also attended.
Rocco: Do you have any idea about whether Halkbank has a legal department?
Cohen: I believe they do.
But Cohen does not remember interacting with Halkbank's legal department. He assumed they did because of the bank's size.
Cohen: I believe they do.
But Cohen does not remember interacting with Halkbank's legal department. He assumed they did because of the bank's size.
Q: American institutions tend to lawyer up much more than foreign institutions.
A: Generally, I think that's a fair statement.
A: Generally, I think that's a fair statement.
Rocco asks whether the U.S. Iranian sanctions regulate the conduct of foreign banks.
A: That's a complicated question, Mr. Rocco.
A: That's a complicated question, Mr. Rocco.
Rocco: Certainly the Treasury Department has jurisdiction over American banks, correct?
A: Yes.
Rocco says that Cohen himself said U.S. sanctions don't apply extraterritorially.
Defense shows Cohen docs with statement that they say he made.
A: Yes.
Rocco says that Cohen himself said U.S. sanctions don't apply extraterritorially.
Defense shows Cohen docs with statement that they say he made.
"Extraterritorially" meaning outside the United States.
Yeah, so "secondary sanctions" is being discussed. Standby.
Rocco seeks to move a Wall Street Journal article into evidence.
Rocco and Cohen are quibbling about the reach of the U.S. sanctions program as regards two countries outside of its territory.
Cohen says that there are times when the U.S. may be interested in transactions involving two foreign countries, e.g. when those transactions involve a terrorist organization.
He was just using that as an example.
Testimony turns into the arcane machinations of the Office of Foreign Assets Control, using a system of communication known as Swift. Or at least that sounds like Swift.
Rocco asks what the end-game was for the meetings.
Q: Were the purpose of those meetings to investigate?
He said the meetings were for both educating the banks and gathering information.
Q: Were the purpose of those meetings to investigate?
He said the meetings were for both educating the banks and gathering information.
"He" is "Cohen," who said he wasn't conducting an investigation at the time of those meetings.
Rocco asks whether there's been a prosecution or action for activity that's just sanctionable.
Cohen: Yes.
Rocco asks for an example.
Cohen cites the BNP Paribas prosecution. justice.gov/opa/pr/bnp-par…
Cohen: Yes.
Rocco asks for an example.
Cohen cites the BNP Paribas prosecution. justice.gov/opa/pr/bnp-par…
Rocco asks whether that was a primary or secondary sanctions violations case.
Cohen says that was a primary sanctions case.
Cohen says that was a primary sanctions case.
Side note: Looks like the breakdown that @youbsanctioned gave earlier might loom large over this case.
Or rather, the subject matter that he broke down into digestible tweets.
Rocco is really hammering home the distinction between primary and secondary sanctions. Legal eagles: Look out for this to be a recurring theme, and read up.
Flashback to yesterday, where I believe that prosecutors called this issue a "case of first impression."
Too tricky to live-tweet.
Subject: What Cohen told Atilla about secondary sanctions.
Subject: What Cohen told Atilla about secondary sanctions.
We're paused. Can't tell whether it's a recess or a sidebar.
Okay, 45 minute lunch break. Resume at 1:15 p.m. here, 21:15 in Turkey. Gorüsürüz!
Service advisory: Looks like I’m going to miss the first 10-15 minutes of cross-ex after lunch because I needed to run an unavoidable errand. Will revisit what I missed. Afedersin!
We're back.
Q: Has Turkey ever agreed with U.S. sanctions against Iran?
A: That is a very complicated question, Mr. Rocco.
A: That is a very complicated question, Mr. Rocco.
Cohen said that there's a diversity of opinion among Turkish officials.
Rocco moves to introduce another piece of evidence, which he is showing to Cohen.
Cohen's not familiar with the exhibits that Rocco wants to admit, so they are not yet into the record.
Retreading a lot of the same ground as earlier.
Q: Did you ever say [to Halkbank] that you were suspicious of what is going on?
Cohen says he doesn't know if he used the word "suspicious."
Cohen says he doesn't know if he used the word "suspicious."
Cohen says he doesn't remember anything he said "verbatim," but he said he saw an increase in gold experts from Turkey to Iran.
He said that he had other reasons to be concerned that he was not prepared to share, on the willingness to adhere to U.S. sanctions.
He said that he had other reasons to be concerned that he was not prepared to share, on the willingness to adhere to U.S. sanctions.
Cohen had a conversation with Atilla on this subject.
"I do recall in the Spring of 13, the meeting in Turkey, having this conversation with Mr. Atilla," he said.
"I do recall in the Spring of 13, the meeting in Turkey, having this conversation with Mr. Atilla," he said.
Cohen said that Atilla told him: "We should be assured that they had... a robust compliance function" vis a vis U.S. sanctions.
Q: In your conversations with Atilla, did you ever made specific recommendations to him on what the bank could be doing to improve diligence?
Cohen says that he can't recall any specific thing he said, though he's sure the subject came up.
Cohen says that he can't recall any specific thing he said, though he's sure the subject came up.
Rocco is showing Cohen his testimony to the House Committee on Foreign Relations from May 2013, which he is entering into evidence.
* Foreign Affairs, not relations
During that testimony, Chairman Ed Royce asked Cohen about gold trade with Iran.
This appears to be Cohen's written testimony to that committee from that month docs.house.gov/meetings/FA/FA…
Need to double-check Cohen's statement regarding Iran, natural gas, and gold trades. Will loop back.
Cohen said the he was in Turkey on the day of arrests in December 2013.
He became familiar with Reza Zarrab as early as that year.
He became familiar with Reza Zarrab as early as that year.
"I think we had suspicions that he was a large gold trader," Cohen says.
He adds that he can't say "with precision" what he knew at that point.
He adds that he can't say "with precision" what he knew at that point.
Court wrapped up early today. Enjoy your weekend!
