Thread by @BenWinslow

An absolutely PACKED room for the hearing on the bill to ban conversion therapy in Utah. I first reported on it here: fox13now.com/2019/01/14/uta… @fox13 #utpol #utleg #LGBTQ

BTW, the @LDSchurch (as you know, a powerful influence in the #utleg) has said it will NOT oppose the bill. @Diocese_of_SLC says it has no position on the bill: fox13now.com/2019/02/20/a-b… @fox13 #utpol #LGBTQ

The committee room is packed with social conservatives, #LGBTQ rights groups and some conversion therapy survivors. So look for this to get interesting: fox13now.com/2019/02/21/bil… @fox13 #utpol #utleg

@fox13 Waiting for the bill to come up, but there's been some amendments filed. @hcraighall (the sponsor) has a one word tweak in his... @fox13 #utpol #utleg

Rep. Brammer has filed an amendment that looks to gut the licensing action taken against therapists who practice conversion therapy. Here's the comparison: le.utah.gov/~2019/bills/hb… @fox13 #utpol #utleg #LGBTQ

And House Judiciary Committee chairwoman @Contemplatriot has her own amendment to Rep. Brammer's amendment putting a few things back. This bill is going to be a FIGHT, kids: le.utah.gov/~2019/bills/hb… @fox13 #utpol #utleg #LGBTQ

Chairwoman @Contemplatriot has also filed a committee amendment to the conversion therapy ban bill (again, on top of Rep. Brammer's proposed amendment). Here's that change. @fox13 #utpol #utleg #LGBTQ

All these amendments filed before the bill is even discussed suggests it's going to be a knock down drag 'em out here in the committee hearing. @fox13 #utpol #utleg #LGBTQ

The conversion therapy ban bill is up. @Contemplatriot calls a quick 2 minute break to let the room clear out. @hcraighall getting ready to present his bill. @fox13 #utpol #utleg #LGBTQ

On the front row, a woman seated with some of the social conservatives has taped her mouth shut in a political statement. (📸 via @EricAtWork) @fox13 #utpol #utleg #LGBTQ

.@hcraighall is now presenting #HB399. He calls conversion therapy "dangerous" that has been discredited.

He says it puts children at risk of suicide. @fox13 #utpol #utleg #LGBTQ

.@hcraighall points out that 15 states have banned conversion therapy, with the backing of GOP governors (and @GovHerbert last night called some methods "barbaric.")

#HB399 doesn't block speech on sexual orientation or gender identity, he says. @fox13 #utpol #LGBTQ

.@hcraighall reads into the record that @GovHerbert explicitly ENDORSES #HB399 along with A LOT of other groups including @HRC, @TrevorProject, @UtahPTAOneVoice, etc.

@fox13 #utpol #utleg

A young man named Nathan is testifying about undergoing conversion therapy. He was told his same-sex attraction and depression "could be cured."

"I was told that if I started to act more masculine..." he describes being told to snap a rubber band if he got a gay thought on skin.

Nathan says he snapped the band so much it broke the skin. He got more depressed.

"Eventually, I attempted suicide by taking sleeping pills. Thankfully, it didn't work," he cries. He's had friends die. @fox13 #utpol #utleg #LGBTQ

"It's still happening today," Nathan says of conversion therapy. "It doesn't work today, nor has it ever worked."

He says getting rid of it will reduce suicide risk. @fox13 #utpol #utleg #LGBTQ

A mental health counselor is now testifying. She says she's heard thousands of stories about conversion therapy and attempts to change sexual orientation. She suggests even "talk therapy" is harmful. @fox13 #utpol #utleg #LGBTQ

This woman proudly states she's an #LDS Church member and performs in the Tabernacle Choir.

She says conversion therapy is harmful to children and increases suicidal ideation.

"I am grateful to be here and to be part of this conversation," she says. @fox13 #utpol #utleg #LGBTQ

The therapist says that she initially didn't think #HB399 was necessary, but now she's for it.

"This bill will prevent therapists from targeting sexual orientation and gender identity," she says. @fox13 #utpol #utleg #LGTBQ

This woman is clearly NOT a fan of even "talk therapy" form of conversion therapy.

She calls the practice "flawed and unethical" and insists it still goes on, calling therapists "imposing their own values." @fox13 #utpol #utleg #LGBTQ

Cliff Rosky, an advisor to @EqualityUtah and a law professor at @sjquinney, talking about how the bill is modeled after NV. There were tweaks requested by the @LDSchurch (to minimize impact to LDS Family Services). @fox13 #utpol #utleg #LGBTQ

Rosky says bill still allows therapists to help clients reconcile religious beliefs with #LGTBQ identity and those questioning.

It only applies to licensed therapists. @fox13 #utpol #utleg

Rosky addresses substitute bills (see earlier in this thread) and notes they all agree conversion therapy is bad.

He says they're offered in good faith, but he opposes them. @fox13 #utpol #utleg

One amendment would exclude "talk therapy," Rosky says.

"Words are just as damaging to children as these more physical methods," he says. @fox13 #utpol #utleg #LGBTQ

Rosky says "talk therapy" in conversion therapy still leads to a 63% suicide attempt rate.

He's looking right at some of the sponsors of these amendments as he speaks. @fox13 #utpol #utleg #LGBTQ

.@WaldripSteve asks Rosky about the substitutes, noting it deals with definition of conversion therapy and the exception for an "priority treatment goal." Is that sufficient?

"No," Rosky says. @fox13 #utpol #utleg #LGBTQ

Rosky tells the committee what the @LDSchurch wanted, which is neutral on treatment.

@WaldripSteve says the harm is statements by therapists that change is possible. Rosky says therapists should NOT be doing this. @fox13 #utpol #utleg #LGBTQ

.@WaldripSteve says they're trying to "draw this box" on what is harmful.

Rosky describes the negotiations to get to where they are in the current bill. @fox13 #utpol #utleg #LGBTQ

Rep. Brammer says someone who engages in conversion therapy "as you define it" is not meeting a reasonable medical professional standard and that "may very well be true."

"Why aren't we seeing lawsuits? This seems like a civil damages issue," he says. @fox13 #utpol #utleg #LGBTQ

Rosky says people are ashamed on what they've gone through.

"Think about the public attention. It's very difficult for someone like Nathan to come in," he says. "It's going to be a media circus."

@fox13 #utpol #utleg #LGBTQ

Rep. Brammer says he believes this would be the first finding in Utah that any form of talk therapy would be specifically outlawed.

Rosky doesn't know, but says he'd like to confirm standards of entire medical/mental health community. @fox13 #utpol #utleg #LGBTQ

Rep. Brammer says he believes this would say this type of "professional speech is no longer allowed."

"Everything a doctor or a therapist says to a patient is heavily regulated by the state of Utah," Rosky responds. @fox13 #utpol #utleg #LGBTQ

"I'm not saying the need isn't there," Rep. Brammer says. "Recognizing this is a big step."

@Contemplatriot acknowledges they need to address the issue, but questions the "agreed upon definitive language on what should not be happening." @fox13 #utpol #utleg #LGBTQ

.@Contemplatriot pushes her proposed substitution, says it's taken from a task force report by the APA.

"I have concerns in the underlying bill," she says.

She says #HB399 doesn't consider broader social/cultural context of a client seeking therapy. @fox13 #utpol #utleg #LGBTQ

.@Contemplatriot says in her reading of the bill, religious context would be "disallowed."

She says it is important therapists be neutral and preserves gender transition language in her sub. @fox13 #utpol #utleg #LGBTQ

Rosky pushes back that #HB399 is limited to minors.

He insists it still preserves "identity exploration and development" which would allow religious context that @Contemplatriot prefers.

She seems skeptical of it. @fox13 #utpol #utleg #LGBTQ

.@Contemplatriot says some therapists who talked to her feel the language is so prescriptive there's a "chilling effect."

"I agree with them," she says.

@fox13 #utpol #utleg #LGBTQ

.@Contemplatriot notes CO is on their 5th try on a conversion therapy ban, hinting this may not go far.

@fox13 #utpol #utleg #LGBTQ

.@erickhutchings says if his child came to him and says "I don't want to be this way," what can they provide? He also asks why talk therapy is bad?

The therapist who testified says talk therapy isn't inherently bad, and effective therapy isn't prohibited. #utpol #utleg #LGBTQ

"Is it just enough to say we're not going to say there's going to be a change? We're gonna fix you?" @erickhutchings says. "I'm confused. What do we need to eliminate in order to make it right?"

Therapists says telling people they're unhealthy. @fox13 #utpol #utleg #LGBTQ

.@writerathome says she hopes people do oppose conversion therapy "as we think of it, especially those draconian methods."

But people often seek therapy "because of a desire to change something." Would #HB399 prevent that? @fox13 #utpol #utleg #LGBTQ

The therapist tells @writerathome it is not off the table, but a good therapist would talk about healthy approaches without talking about what can/can't be changed. @fox13 #utpol #utleg #LGBTQ

.@writerathome asks what is off the table. A therapist's own values that conflict with the client's values are not appropriate, she says.

@fox13 #utpol #utleg #LGBTQ

.@lowrysnow calls Rosky back up to ask what part of the substitutes is problematic?

Rosky says the definition of conversion therapy. He says it's better not to pass any bill at all than put that in. @fox13 #utpol #utleg #LGBTQ

BTW, the clock is ticking on this hearing (they adjourn at 10 a.m.) and it is altogether possible this bill just STALLS. Hearing runs out of time, doesn't get rescheduled and just dies. @fox13 #utpol #utleg #LGBTQ

Rosky argues some of the most dangerous things are telling a boy he's not masculine enough or a girl she's not feminine enough.

Rep. Seegmiller hasn't heard anyone rejecting the bill outright, but they want to focus the definition. @fox13 #utpol #utleg #LGBTQ

Rep. Seegmiller worries that they're telling ppl they have no ability to change behavior.

He likes the new lines in the substitute bill by @Contemplatriot.

He asks if it's bad to ask a young person to decide how to self-identify and live that way? @fox13 #utpol #utleg #LGBTQ

Rosky objects to applying "self-determination" to minors in the context of conversion therapy, practices he says have been shown to be harmful.

"For me that's a big concern," Rep. Seegmiller says. "Sounds like a therapist imposing their views on a child." #utpol #utleg #LGBTQ

.@Contemplatriot announces they are out of time.

"This is a very important issue that has real life implications and I definitely want to hear the public comment," she says.

She says they can begin public comment period (lightning round) or hold the bill. #utpol #utleg #LGBTQ

Conversion therapy bill is HELD. It may be considered again on Tuesday. @fox13 #utpol #utleg #LGBTQ