Welcome to the live tweet of our meeting discussing Catullus 63 and issues of pedagogy and translation. This week, we read Maxine Lewis' chapter "Queering Catullus in the Classroom: The Ethics of Teaching Poem 63." (summary forthcoming).
@ala_Camillae begins the discussion by summarizing some of the major points of the article--in particular, the difficulty of introducing gender-neutral pronouns to students and the many issues behind the choice of the word "they" in translation.
@ala_camillae quotes Lewis on the issue of coming into a classroom where students are predisposed to think the major 3PS pronouns are "he/she," when actually that may be damaging, exclusionary to trans/genderfluid students.
@ala_Camillae when we come to a discussion of Catullus 63, we always risk erasing or marginalizing the perspective of transgender/genderfluid students and perhaps alienating them from the classroom altogether.
Moreover, to say that issues of trans-identity didn't exist in other time periods or don't still exist in other cultures is factually inaccurate. @Brododaktylos points out how weird gendered pronouns are in the first place, and how heavily we rely on genders in Latin/Greek
@Brododaktylos mentions that they've never seen anyone address this issue in the classroom, and thus hasn't seen real methods in practice.
We've talked in our previous meetings about owning discomfort, and last week we discussed a strategy that Lewis addresses in her own article about encouraging students to interrogate scholarship and be critical of articles.
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The strategies Lewis outlines include introducing the issue of gendered language, introducing gender-neutral pronouns, and inviting students to riff of of Catullus 63 in writing responses to it; this culminates in interrogation of scholarship.
@mercury_witch in particular connects to this last point--students, especially in undergrad, can read an article and take it as authoritative because it comes from a scholar; it's published. If you think of a scholar as a definitive authority, it can be alienating.
@mercury_witch says that hearing an instructor/professor encourage interrogation of scholarship and critical thinking surrounding an issue can be liberating for students. It's our job to teach critical thinking, to remind students that these are ongoing discussions. #teachancient
@Brododaktylos points out in particular the interesting difference between gendered language and sexist language--not the same thing, and the type of distinction that we as instructors ought to introduce to our students. #teachancient
@ala_Camillae shares her experience with her own initial efforts to understand/distinguish between intersex/genderfluid/trans identities. E.g. writing about Hermaphroditus, whom she initially thought of as genderqueer, but later clarified as a nonbinary individual with...
...genderfluid characteristics. Again, this gets at the point of owning our own journeys coming to learn about complex issues and being up front with our students about how difficult and important these issues are. @ala_Camillae #teachancient
One cohort discusses her invitation to students to come talk to her personally about their personal pronouns so that she doesn't potentially alienate them in the classroom. #teachancient
A few of us share experiences of passing out cards for students to write down their names as well as their gender pronouns (@mercury_witch) or putting our own pronouns on a syllabus/handout to demonstrate a safe space (@ala_Camillae) #teachancient
Another of our cohort mentions making an effort to avoid pronouns in general in the classroom; however, as @Brododaktylos points out, this can become a serious issue when working with translation of a language which inherently necessitates gendered pronouns. #teachancient
Question: what danger is there in translating a pronoun? @ala_Camillae points out that misgendering or enforcing gender on characters can create a potentially transphobic/alienating environment in the classroom. #teachancient
The danger is to dehumanize or completely disregard the gender identity of your students. @ala_Camillae #teachancient
@Brododaktylos points to the potential issues that can arise when you're teaching language: if you teach pronouns you need to be careful not to enforce a gender binary...
...-it can be useful to use IRL examples to teach pronouns, but if done wrong, you can really harm a student's relationship with the language. Even in Cat. 63, e.g., Catullus doesn't use neut. pronouns. @Brododaktylos
@i_nurmi points out that the problem of translating Cat. 63 is that Catullus deliberately mixes up the genders, so teaching this poem really becomes a minefield #teachancient
Issues of gender pronouns are often outlined as grammatical, but it's not as if issues around gender didn't exist in the ancient world. @ala_Camillae What causes frustration for students is how to identify Attis throughout Cat. 63
Students will ask what Attis' gender identity is, so that they can have a language to speak about it appropriately without getting confused about what pronouns to use. @ala_Camillae says that this is why gender-neutral pronouns are useful; HOWEVER...
..."they" as 3PS doesn't necessarily work in Catullus 63. Lewis lists some gender neutral pronouns (zie/her, nu/per); We have to be careful not to overwhelm students with options, though (@ala_Camillae @i_nurmi)
Question: Does Attis ever assign himself a gender within the poem? A: No! It's all Catullus. Attis is not intersex; he was born male-presenting. Lewis says that Attis is also not trans; zie castrates hirself in a religious frenzy, not for identity, and faces regret afterwards.
In fact, even Attis doesn't know hir identity after the fact, and asks if zie is a Maenad or a barren man (@i_nurmi)
There's an issue w/ the projected ID of Attis as trans that it might have implications that anyone who seeks gender reassignment surgery will immediately regret their actions @ala_Camillae
Lewis discusses the English 3ps as the last real remnant of gendered language--but other modern languages already have a gender-neutral alternative that lacks the awkward and potentially damaging risks of translation into English. In those other languages, using...
...a gender-neutral pronoun for the 3ps is not awkward and is in fact totally natural; people use it all the time (e.g. the French "on.") But even translation from those modern languages into English is awkward and has a political implication. @mercury_witch
If you provide your students with a list of potential 3PS pronouns and then have them make their own choices and experiment with usage (@Brododaktylos) you can also later have them interrogate those choices/the implications of them (@i_nurmi) #teachancient
A cohort: if the gender is clear, take it out of the Latin itself; if it isn't clear, you have to make a choice--and you have to be careful/critical of that choice. #teachancient
Cohort: we also need to remember that Attis' decisions and experiences are ALL INFORMED BY THE NARRATOR, CATULLUS. @Brododaktylos: when we interrogate the scholarship, that includes interrogating the author! #teachancient
(At this point, @mercury_witch excitedly hops out of her chair shouting out "WHO IS TELLING THE STORY!")
@Brododaktylos suggests a useful exercise where one could instruct students to use a gender neutral pronoun but to point out what the Latin is using. Cohort asks: What's the difference in that approach? #teachancient
@Brododaktylos answers that using both allows you to not only teach language, but to inform students about the implications of the languages they already know and use--again, interrogating texts as well as our own choices and that of others. #teachancient
Cohor: just as much as this is a pedagogical minefield, it's also full of opportunities to have students think about things they might not think about in their own time. This kind of ex. might provide one of the only opportunities they have to have these discussions #teachancient
(@mercury_witch jumps out of her chair: TEACHABLE MOMENTS! TEACHABLE MOMENTS!!!!)
Cohort shares experience of students actually being more informed than him of the implications of this language; you WILL have students who have their own experiences with the political problems of gendered language, and wil know more about this than a cisgendered instructor.
Cohort continues: how do you avoid the risk of insulting students? What do you do if you've already inadvertently insulted them? What if you have an openly transphobic student? @ala_Camillae responds: honestly share your perspective.
@ala_Camillae says she doesn't know how she would confront a potentially adamantly transphobic student. Do you ask them to leave because they make other students feel unsafe?
@Brododaktylos suggests interrogating the situation; ask a student to clarify their point; ask them if they understand the implications of what they're saying; ask them what makes them feel this way
@ala_Camillae worries about people who might double down on their transphobia, rejecting facts or opportunities for constructive conversations. You could invest in a transphobic student at the risk of alienating other students in the class.
Cohort suggests: interrogating a student, but if they prove overly resistant you can ask them to leave. @i_nurmi suggests that once you gauge their resistance, asking a student to leave might be your only option.
@i_nurmi shares an experience where a student had a serious outburst in a class about religion; e.g. comparing sacrifice of Iphigenia and Isaac--one student suggested there was no difference, but another student grew very angry at equating these examples/the status of the gods
(It should be noted at this juncture that "interrogate" is being used here not in the concept of an interrogation room, but rather the sort of critical questioning we give to scholarship and each other in seminars etc.--deep questions meant to facilitate discussion)
@i_nurmi all of these issues address how we teach students to engage in the Classics; how do we get students to walk away loving the Classics (even with all of its baggage)? When we come across these problems, we have to make sure we don't alienate students. #teachancient
@Brododaktylos so many students come in to the Classics not understanding why they're important in the first place, so applying issues of politically gendered languages onto our translation of ancient texts can bring forth relevancy of the Classics.
A cohort shares experience with teaching sections where students are upset by characterization of women in myth, e.g. Pandora; we have to remind students that it's OK to find those issues and be frustrated by them and critical of them! We should encourage students to be critical!
@i_nurmi "I feel like we say this every week, but loving something means being able to acknowledge its faults." Moreover, to be good scholars we have to be critical scholars--if we want our students to be scholars, we need to teach them to be critical scholars. @mercury_witch
It's always good to learn as early as possible how to incorporate these problems into your own approach to the classics, because it will help your transition (a loaded choice of words) from western-centric, binary approaches we've been taught to new approaches...
...which will hopefully allow students, especially marginalized students, to see themselves as having a place in the world of the Classics. @ala_Camillae Asking for students' pronouns is a good start, but it probably isn't enough. @i_nurmi
@ala_Camillae shares that when she teaches the 3PS pronoun, she uses "he/she/it/singular they." She doesn't enforce this on students, but wants to introduce it as an option. #teachancient
@Brododaktylos reminds all of us that no matter what, "you are not enough." You need to recommend resources to your students outside of the classroom, as well as outside of Classics. #teachancient
Cohort shares their own experience switching to using "they/them" in everyday speech about everyone; it falls into your vocabulary, and in the process normalizes that language for other people who hear you using it comfortably.
@i_nurmi agrees that this is a great strategy; by normalizing it you don't invite combative perspectives that might fight you on your decision to use gender-neutral language.
Cohort says that not drawing attention to things is better than being precise in gender-sensitive situations. Risks of taking attendance, for example, could give a dead name; better to ask for students' preferred nicknames at the beginning of the course. @i_nurmi
Instead of taking attendance, @duxfeminafacti9 suggests going around the room and have students introduce themselves FIRST. It also gets around to the issue of mispronouncing students names! @ala_Camillae
@leannalovee suggests actually using notecards as a way to take attendance; a student can give you their notecard and that way you know if they were there or not--you also avoid the risk of misgendering someone, or putting pressure on socially anxious students. #teachancient
That concludes today's meeting on Catullus 63! Thanks for following the twitter thread; stay tuned for a summary of Lewis' excellent chapter later on (could potentially inform your reading of this discussion). #teachancient
