Thread by @brandonjsmith5

It's Day Four of the Curtis Hill disciplinary hearing.

Here's yesterday's recap: wfyi.org/news/articles/…

And here's the full thread from Day 3:

https://twitter.com/brandonjsmith5/status/1186993031997730820?s=20

Attorney General Curtis Hill is called to testify.

He'll be questioned first by his own lawyers.

Hill is being asked to recount his bio/resume, essentially.

He basically did the same thing yesterday, so much of this is a repeat.

Hill is now recounting his full day on the day of Sine Die 2018 (March 14, 2018).

He's going into some detail (He normally has cereal, he can't remember if that's what he had that day).

Hill says he went to Capital Grille around 8:30pm, looking for something to eat.

He met Tony Samuel there and joined his group.

This lines up with what Samuel testified to yesterday.

Hill says when he took his tie off that evening, he unbuttoned his top two buttons. He says he was wearing a t-shirt under his dress shirt.

One of the witnesses testified earlier this week that Hill's shirt was unbuttoned more than that and they didn't see a shirt underneath.

Hill is now at the point of the evening where he's arriving at the Sine Die party at AJ's Lounge.

Hill says he'd never been or even heard of AJ's before.

Hill says despite losing a legislative battle earlier that evening, the AG says he was in good spirits. He describes himself as "old school - able to take a licking and keep on ticking."

Hill says he didn't know about Sine Die parties before that evening - he says he was there to engage with legislators and others.

Hill says he was walking around, meeting and talking with people. "It was pretty fluid."

Within 15, 20 minutes of arriving he ordered a vodka martini.

Hill says as time went on, the crowd and noise grew.

"I can't say the numbers but in my view the place was packed," especially around the bar area.

Hill says he sometimes has trouble hearing - he has a bit of a deficiency in both ears, but his left ear in particular.

Hill says he met many people at AJ's - "some I knew, many I didn't."

Hill describes some of his conversations as "substantive." He says, for instance, he spoke with Sen. Greg Taylor (D-Indy) about a piece of legislation that he was focused on during session related to the AG's office budget.

Hill says there were also a lot of "quick hits" conversations - hello, how are you, what's your name, etc.

Hill hasn't said yet whether he was introducing himself by saying "Do you know who I am?" which many have testified to.

Hill: "I'm a fun guy. I can get around, have a good time, laugh and engage."

Hill is describing the "show some skin" incident:

He says he was standing at the bar and saw Sen. Taylor playing bartender, found that amusing.

So he told everyone there, as a joke, "Gee, if you wanna get this guy's attention, you have to show some leg."

Hill says he did *not* turn to anyone and say they should show some skin and he would buy them a drink - which he believes was the implication of earlier testimony.

Hill says his comment was kind of referencing "It Happened One Night" with Clark Gable and Claudette Colbert.

Hill's attorney Donald Lundberg asks - and Hill agrees - that people "of a younger generation" wouldn't have caught the allusion to the film.

Hill says he only had two drinks that night - the vodka martini (which he says he nursed much of the night) and a shot of (Fireball) whiskey that he sipped.

He says he drank lots of water.

Hill: "I certainly believe alcohol played a part in my relaxed attitude."

Hill says he's a "very rare" drinker. "When I do, it's usually limited to one or two."

Hill says he was tired when he got to AJ's and got more tired as the night went on.

Hill says he knew Rep. Reardon in his capacity as Attorney General and her capacity as a state lawmaker and member of the Black Caucus.

Hill says he came face-to-face with Reardon as he walked around. As they approached, he said hello. He says she started to speak and he leaned down to hear her ("She's considerably shorter than I am")

He says he put his hand around her back to brace himself as he leaned in.

At some point, he realized his hand was on bare skin and not fabric, as he expected.

Hill says he took his hand away when he realized he was touching skin. "Oh, you've got a backless dress" Hill said. "It looked to me like the type of dress one would wear in a formal setting."

Hill says he had no idea Reardon's dress was backless when he put his arm around her.

Hill describes the back of Reardon's dress as a "U-shape" that dipped below her waist and showed the "upper region" of her butt.

Others have testified that it scooped down low, to her lower back - but that you couldn't see any part of her butt.

Hill: "I was startled" when I touched her back and felt skin and not fabric.

Hill says his hand did not linger on her back - it was on her back for "a matter of seconds."

Reardon has said Hill "grabbed a handful of ass."

Asked if he did that, Hill says "Absolutely not." He says his hand was on her skin, above her buttocks.

Hill says he doesn't recall any further interactions with Reardon that night.

Reardon testified that Hill touched her again later that night, saying "That skin, that back."

Hill is refuting Reardon's testimony about the way he touched her.

He says he didn't hear her say "What the fuck" or "Back off" as she testified to.

Hill says Reardon didn't express any anger or hostility towards him.

And he says the only reference he made to her back was that he said "Oh, you have a backless dress."

He denies saying "That skin, that back."

The testimony is now moving on to Samantha Lozano's allegations.

Hill says he first met Lozano in 2017, at Hoosier Idol (a well-known charity event for Indiana politicos)

Hill is now talking about how he occasionally performs as Elvis Presley (which he did at Hoosier Idol).

Lundberg and Hill are still talking about when Hill first met Samantha Lozano in 2017. They took a photo together, which was entered into evidence on Monday.

(Check out Niki Kelly's timeline for the photo itself)

Now we're back at the Sine Die party.

Hill says he was at the bar and, because it was crowded, turned himself sideways to allow people to access the bar. That's when he encountered Lozano.

Hill says Lozano testified that she mentioned Hill's daughter (with whom she went to college).

Hill says that happened when he and Lozano met in 2017, which Lozano says she didn't remember.

Now on to Niki DaSilva.

Hill says he'd met her through her boss, Sen. Ryan Mishler (R-Bremen), in Mishler's office.

Hill says he first saw DaSilva at the Sine Die party when Mishler introduce/re-introduced them.

Hill says he was not aware of DaSilva's presence when he made the "show some leg" comment at the bar.

Hill says he thinks DaSilva was one of the people he was next when he was turning sideways to allow people access to the bar.

Hill denies touching DaSilva's butt (as she testified to).

Hill says he'd placed his hand on several people's backs - men and women - but at no time was there any interaction where he moved his hand down to someone's buttocks.

Now on to Gabrielle Brock.

Hill says (like Brock has said) that they'd never met before the Sine Die party.

Hill says he has no recollection of meeting Brock at the party, either. He has some recollection of an event similar to what she describes but doesn't remember her.

Brock testified that Hill rubbed her back in a sexual way.

Hill says he didn't touch anyone in a sexual manner that evening at AJ's.

Asked what "sexual manner" means to him, Hill says it means touching in an area that's typically off limits or doing it in a way to arouse.

He doesn't consider a person's back to be intimate.

Hill says he doesn't deny he had physical contact with plenty of people that evening, but denies having any "sensual or intimate" contact with anyone.

Hill: "I rubbed no one's back at AJ's for a few minutes."

Hill says he remembers dancing with a lobbyist, as several people testified.

He says he doesn't recall dancing with anyone else, including the accusers.

None of the accusers say they danced with Hill.

Hill says he danced with the lobbyist to an "Elvis-like song" and danced in the style of Elvis.

Hill indicates the dance with the lobbyist was consensual.

Previous witnesses described the dance as appearing to be consensual.

Hill says no one commented on the amount of alcohol he consumed. Hill says no one commented to him about his behavior.

Asked whether there were other people at the bar that night in equivalent political standing, Hill says yes. "Some folks who just took $15 million."

Lawmakers that evening approved legislation to take that money from a fund the AG's office oversees.

Hill says he left AJ's around 3am. He says he had to give a speech the next morning (around 11) and says he was tired but not hungover.

After a short recess, Hill is back testifying.

Lundberg asks again about the physical contact Hill had with people at AJs.

Hill says he put his hand on people's shoulders to lean in, because it was crowded and noisy.

Hill says no one at AJ's asked him not to touch them, or that the way he was touching them was offensive or unwelcome.

Hill says his then-Chief of Staff Joan Blackwell spoke to him about the Sine Die party within days.

He says Blackwell asked if he'd been to AJ's for the party. And he says she said someone said something about Hill saying "Show some leg." Hill told Blackwell it was a joke.

Hill says he also told Blackwell he put his hand on a lot of people's back but that it was nothing inappropriate.

Blackwell testified that she told Hill about hearing that he danced with a legislator at the party.

Hill says he doesn't remember that - but that, if she had asked him about that, he would've said (and still says) he didn't dance with a legislator.

Hill says he believed what Blackwell told him was just part of the "Statehouse rumor mill" and didn't rise to the level of further engagement.

He says he didn't tell Blackwell to investigate. (She testified to the same)

Hill says the next time he heard about the Sine Die party was June 29, on the phone call with Speaker Bosma and Sen. Long.

Hill said he thought it was unusual to get a request for a phone call with both Bosma and Long, out of session.

Hill was traveling when the call took place.

Hill says his chief deputy Aaron Negangard arranged the phone call and was on the line when it took place.

Hill says Bosma did most of the talking. Hill says he was told about the legislative investigation into the allegations.

Hill says he was "in shock" because he didn't know what they were talking about.

Hill says he asked "What are you talking about?"

Hill says he told Bosma and Long he had more to drink than usual. He asked who the accusers were.

Bosma and Long told Hill not to come to legislative events.

Hill says he told Bosma and Long he didn't know how to comply with their directive not to contact accusers if he didn't know who the accusers were.

Hill says he believed the primary reason Bosma and Long initiated this call was because the IndyStar had information about his conduct.

He says he told Bosma and Long he was "troubled" by allegations and apologized to Bosma and Long for any trouble he caused them.

Hill says he also had Bosma and Long relay an apology if he offended anyone or made them feel uncomfortable.

Hill says the "general nature" of Bosma and Long's descriptions of the call is accurate.

However, Hill doesn't remember any mention of his hand beneath a dress.

Hill: "I was shocked, I was troubled. Apparently there were people out there, women out there who believed or perceived that I had done something or said something inappropriate."

Hill says he understood that his comment about "showing some leg" was perceived as inappropriate but was confused about all the other allegations.

At the in-person meeting with Bosma and Long at the Statehouse (as well as the Democratic leaders) on July 2, Hill says he read the press release the four leaders were sending to the Star.

Hill says that press release indicated the accusers were satisfied.

Hill says as he read the press release, Bosma said the situation "went from bad to worse" because the Taft memo had been leaked to the Star.

Hill asked for a copy of the memo but was denied because it was confidential. Hill said since it was leaked, it was no longer confidential

Bosma indicated that one of the four leaders (or their staffers) leaked the memo.

Hill says "At that point, I really became suspicious" and says he thought it was becoming a political attack.

Hill says the legislative leaders told him they didn't investigate the Attorney General, they investigated "workplace sexual harassment."

Hill: "Workplace sexual harassment...at AJ's Tavern?"

Hill asked the leaders if they turned over the investigation to the Marion County prosecutor's office.

"No, no, no, this isn't criminal." - that's what Hill says the leaders said.

Hill says his first indication that Reardon was one of the accusers was when Bosma told him that one of the accusers alleged Hill touched her beneath a backless dress.

Hill: "I was unable to see the report and I was getting agitated."

He says once something gets out into the public, you can't put that horse back into the barn.

He says he was frustrated he wasn't able to provide context to the Taft memo.

Hill says he wasn't contacted by the IndyStar for comment until July 2, just before Hill went to that meeting with the legislative leaders.

The Star story was published later that day.

Hill says he now knows who leaked the Taft memo - a House Democratic communications employee. Hill says he knows the person's name.

That person's name is not being made public in these proceedings.

Bosma testified yesterday he doesn't know who leaked the memo.

Hill says he first saw the Taft memo when the Star published it.

His first reaction: "It was a heart-sinking moment."

Hill says he knows what an investigative report looks like and describes the Taft memo as "so void of form and substance."

Hill says it was a series of unverified or unsubstantiated allegations. He didn't know how he would be able to address it.

Hill says the Taft report was not an accurate description of the night at AJ's.

He notes it doesn't even line up with what the accusers say happened.

Lundberg asks Hill if anyone approached him to apologize for the leak of the Taft memo.

Hill says no.

Hill: "I was gonna fight."

He says he wasn't going to get a fair opportunity to be heard and was going to make sure that would happen.

Lundberg describes the Taft memo as "an analysis based on somebody else's investigation."

Hill says the governor and others called for his resignation, as well as an investigation by the Inspector General.

Hill says once the Inspector General got the case, they applied for a special prosecutor.

That prosecutor was Dan Sigler. Hill describes his reputation as "first rate."

A reminder: Sigler decided not to press charges against Hill, finding the evidence wasn't sufficient enough to guarantee successful prosecution.

Sigler said, essentially, that for the level of crime (low level felony/misdemeanor), it wasn't worth it.

The attorneys are arguing over whether Hill's team can submit special prosecutor Dan Sigler's conclusions from his report.

The Disciplinary Commission says Sigler's conclusions are irrelevant and tread on the toes of the hearing office and the Supreme Court.

Hearing officer Myra Selby is taking a lunch break now and will give her ruling on the question of submitting Sigler's conclusions after lunch.

Back at 1pm.

The hearing is back from lunch.

Selby begins by barring Hill's attorneys from introducing special prosecutor Dan Sigler's report/conclusions as evidence.

Hill's attorney Donald Lundberg is back to the night at AJ's.

He's asking about an interaction Samantha Lozano described in which she told Hill, "It's hot in here" and she says Hill replied, "Yes, you're hot."

Hill denies that happened, with Lozano or anyone.

Lundberg has moved on to the allegations of Kathleen Bowers, who worked for the Elkhart County Prosecutor's office when Hill worked there/was the elected prosecutor.

Bowers's testimony begins at this point in my thread from yesterday:

https://twitter.com/brandonjsmith5/status/1187003765645291520?s=20

Hill says he didn't have a lot of interaction with Bowers.

But he does say he participated in a dance event with Bowers (which Bowers testified to), as well as at rehearsals for that event.

Hill says he commented to Bowers (after that charity event) that he thought she was very good, complimented her on her style, said she'd make a good partner.

He says he talked to Bowers about getting dance lessons. (Hill says he wanted the lessons for him and his wife.)

Hill says he used the word "hot" to describe what he wanted out of the lessons, but he meant it as "exciting" or "sizzling."

Hill denies having an affair or having sexual intercourse with Bowers.

Bowers doesn't say that happened; she testified that he propositioned her.

Hill admits he went into Bowers's office in Elkhart County Prosecutor's office sometime around Dec. 2018 (she says it was Dec. 23, 2018).

Hill says they again discussed dancing lessons.

Hill denies what Bowers said in testimony that the conversation was about more than dance, that it was about sex.

Hill denies that he ever said "We should fuck because it would be hot."

Hill says he *did* use the words "fuck" and "hot" in a sentence but denies that it conveyed a proposition to have an affair or sex.

Hill says he told Bowers "We could have been fucking hot" to refer to if they had danced together at that charity dance event.

Hill says the four accusers (not including Bowers) have sued him in federal civil court for money. (They've also sued the state and the AG's office.)

Lundberg: "Did you show up to AJ's an angry man?"

Hill: "Not at all...I was in a pleasing mood."

Hill says he touched no one in a rude, insolent or angry manner. (Those terms are straight out of the battery statute in state criminal law)

Hill: "If someone felt that my behavior was insolent...there was nothing I did to be insolent."

Hill says the same about being rude or angry.

Hill says he's never touched Niki DaSilva in a way that was intended to arouse his sexual desires. (That's language straight out of the sexual battery statute in state criminal law).

Hill says he's never been charged with a crime for what happened at AJ's.

Hill says, in the phone call with Bosma and Long, he did apologize *only* to the extent if anyone felt uncomfortable or offended by his behavior or comments...but says he didn't know the full allegations.

Hill: "I feel no different today than I felt then...I never want to be in a position where someone is felt to be uncomfortable by my words or my actions."

Lundberg has finished questioning Hill.

Commission attorney Seth Pruden is now cross-examining the Attorney General.

Pruden: did anyone tell you, at any time, that the accusers were planning on bringing a civil suit against you back around the time of the alleged incidents?

Hill: Not to my knowledge.

Hill says he doesn't know why it would be relevant to this disciplinary case that the accusers filed a civil suit.

Pruden is discussing the statement Hill gave to the special prosecutor.

That state was video recorded, in which Hill's attorney James Voyles asked him questions and he answered. No one representing the special prosecutor was there and Hill wasn't under oath.

Pruden: if you touch somebody on the butt and they don't consent, is that rude?

Hill: It would depend on the context.

Pruden: example?

Hill: if you clean up a two-year-old's diaper.

Pruden: If you did what these women say you did, are you saying that would not be rude?

Hill says the law says intention matters.

Hill acknowledges that he may have touched Gabrielle Brock's shoulder but says he did not rub up and down her back, or rub any part of her.

Lundberg objects, saying Pruden is arguing with Hill over the law.

But Pruden says this is an attorney discipline case and it's important to know whether Hill - an attorney - has a deficiency of knowledge in the law.

Hearing officer Selby sides with Lundberg.

Pruden is asking about the Republican Attorneys General Association, a political organization aimed at backing and expanding the number of Republican state AGs across the country.

Hill says he can't recall if he and his people provided statements to RAGA about his position on the allegations.

Pruden is discussing emails about responses to the allegations between Hill, members of his staff in the AG's office, and outside attorneys/friends.

Hill says the employees weren't doing this in their capacity as AG employees.

But Pruden notes they were sent during workdays.

Pruden's questions for a while have been, in general, about coordination between people who are employees of the Attorney General's office and those who are not, including employees of Hill's political campaign.

Hill says just because he's copied on an email doesn't mean he read the email.

One of the emails in evidence is titled "Background on Disciplinary Committee members."

The email chain includes: "Any objection to pitching story to conservative media that Holcomb cronies and liberals are driving this?"

That was written by Danny Diaz, a political consultant.

After a short break, Pruden and Hill are going back and forth about the discrepancy between Rep. Reardon's allegations and what's written in the Taft memo

This part of the proceeding is going...slowly.

Pruden is asking Hill to recount a lot of previous testimony from other witnesses.

Now they're going over an exhibit entered into evidence days ago.

Pruden is asking about Hill's statement to the press on July 9, 2018 that allegations were "vicious and false."

Pruden asks if Hill thinks they're still vicious. Hill says allegations and the way it was handled and leaked to the press was vicious "from a political standpoint."

Essentially, it seems like Hill is saying the "process" was vicious as opposed to attacking the accusers, which was one of the subjects of the Disciplinary Commission complaint.

Pruden's cross-examination is done.

Hill's team declines to redirect.

Hill is done testifying.

There are no more witnesses.

Selby says the hearing is finished but wants to meet privately with the attorneys to discuss "next steps."

It's unclear if the whole thing is adjourned.

Just got clarification from Pruden.

The four-day-long Disciplinary Commission hearing into Attorney General Curtis Hill is over.

Here's a short version of what happens now:

It will be months before a final decision is ultimately made.

Here's a longer version of what happens next:

-The court reporter prepares a record of the hearing (~30 days)
-Both sides prepare proposed findings (another ~30 days)
-Hearing officer Selby makes a recommendation (No time limit)
(cont'd)

Next steps (cont'd)
-Whichever side doesn't like Selby's recommendation petitions the state Supreme Court to weigh in (Within 30 days of Selby's recommendation)
-The Supreme Court makes the final decision (No time limit)

And with that, my thread on this hearing is complete.